Poor Service From Orange

18.3

Hello,

I am a Pay As You Go customer.

I checked my email (headers only) using my Orange phone this morning.
It cost me 8 pence, which, at the advertised £4 per Megabyte, implies that the 20KBytes were downloaded.

I felt that was excessive for nine email headers, so I examined the headers, and include them below.

They amount to 11,060 characters, which, at 1024 characters a Kilobyte, comes to 10.8KiloBytes.

I realise that there may be some additional communications overhead, but this does not account for the near doubling of data volume I'm seeing.

So, please let me know why the cost for this network transaction was nearly twice what I calculate it ought to be.

Many thanks & Best Wishes,
Chris Wesley <phone numbers provided here>

This drew an automated acknowledgement, which I've included below.

All I really need is "Thanks, we got your email, and we'll get back to you soon".

But - like most large companies, trying to impress without actually doing anything impressive - they can't resist the opportunity to pack these auto-generated emails with corporate crap.

Of particular note in this one:

1. It's HUGE! All the stuff in red is surplus to requirements.

2. They tell you how good they are - likeI'll believe them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. "Orange are really great. No, honestly, we really are.". Oh, please - give it up.

3. Setting expectations by lieing. Like Barclaycard and many others, they allude to "unusually high demand" and try to give the impression that the low level of service you receive this time is somehow the exception rather than the rule. It's far more likely that they staff their service centres so that these poor service levels are entirely the norm. Why? Well because they already have your money, and you're calling to take more of their time without paying for it. That's why. Invariably, sales centresare staffed for immediate response, because they don't yet have your money - and they want it. Whereas support centres are staffed poorly.

4. They refer me to a alternative way of receiving service - which costs me 50p per minute. That's a tough choice, but... I'm going to decline on this ocassion.

Now we're into the arse-covering:

5. The confidentiality clause. Why is it there? Why can't I share what they wrote to me with whoever I choose? Perhaps to stop articles like this one from being written?

6. The opinions in this email are not necessarily those of Orange?! How unfortunate. I sort of expected that 0 by calling Orange for help - I'd get some Orange opinions. Bummer.

7. We scan for viruses but so should you. Well, you know - if I hadn't have read that, I might not have know. Orange constantly just adding value to the service they provide.

8. Orange is a subsidiary.. yada yaya. Who cares?!?!?!

18.3

Orange strive to supply customers with the highest level of service and we would therefore like to advise that this is an automated response.

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your mail.

We have received your mail and will respond as soon as we can however, we have received a high volume of emails recently which may delay our response. Account specific mails or mails relating to lost, stolen, damaged or faulty phones cannot be answered by email and will not therefore receive a reply. Please call Orange Customer Services on 150 (07973100150 from a landline) for pay monthly or 450 (07973100450) for pay as you go or you may be able to find the answer to your query by going to www.orange.co.uk/helpandsupport.

If you have an Orange phone and you are experiencing difficulties with your online account, you can contact our technical helpdesk by dialling 439 from your Orange phone or 07973100439 from a landline. Please note that callers must be over 18 and calls are charged at 50 pence per minute at all times. For any other queries, our customer services helpdesk will be pleased to assist and can be contacted by calling 450 from a pay as you go phone, or 07973100450 from a landline, or 150 from a pay monthly phone (07973100150 from a landline).

As this is an automated response, do not reply as we are not able to answer replies sent from this acknowledgement.

Kind regards

Orange Customer Services

********************************************************************
Important.
Confidentiality: This communication is intended for the above-named
person(s) and may be confidential and/or legally privileged.
Any opinions expressed in this communication are not necessarily
those of the company. If it has come to you in error you must
take no action based on it, nor must you copy or show it to anyone;
please delete/destroy and inform the sender immediately.

Monitoring/Viruses.
Orange may monitor all incoming and outgoing emails in line with
current legislation. Although we have taken steps to ensure that
this email and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that
in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure
they are actually virus free.

Orange Personal Communications Services Limited is a subsidiary of
Orange SA and is registered in England No 2178917,
with its address at St James Court, Great Park Road,
Almondsbury Park, Bradley Stoke, Bristol BS32 4QJ.

Orange Retail Limited is a subsidiary of Orange SA and is registered
in England No 2439104, with its address at St James Court,
Great Park Road, Almondsbury Park, Bradley Stoke, Bristol BS32 4QJ.
********************************************************************

19.3

Dear Chris

Thank you for your mail

I can confirm that there are several components which make up the charging of GPRS in relation to sending and receiving email.

Firstly there is the initial GPRS connection to the network, after this data will be transferred due to the fact that your personal details and handset connect to remote servers. At this point the headers will be retrieved, in doing this data will be both sent and received.

This therefore accounts for the accumulation of data charges you have encountered.

I trust this information is of use and resolves your query.

Kind regards

Charlie
Orange Customer Services

Charlie's response is one day after my enquiry, which is OK.

I don't like the recent trend towards using "I can confirm". Cahoot do it. WHY? It's bizarrely un-natural.

And I don't like the huge corporate crap overhead which came with it. I deleted it this time round.

Anyway, it's an acceptable response for a first crack of the whip. However, it doesn't completely resolve my query. See below.

20.3

Hello Charlie and thanks for your prompt and informative response.

Your literature talks about £4 per Megabyte but I can't find any mention of GPRS connection charges.

Please let me know where they are referred to.

Quite separately, please tell me what they are - presumably, the overhead is identical for each connection made.

I would be extremely surprised if they account for the missing data volume we're looking at here.

Many thanks & Best Wishes,
Chris

21.3

Subject: RE: Case 4919384 Data Costs >=>MNC.ORANGE

********************************************************************
Important.
Confidentiality: This communication is intended for the above-name ...
Standard crap removed.

21.3

Hello,

I think you may have made a mistake.
You sent me the email below, but it has no real content - only your standard blurbs.
Please confirm.

Regards,
Chris

24.3

Please address this for me.

Thanks

[copy of earlier email]

30.3

Please respond to this.

[copy of earlier emails]

Nothing for a further five days. So ...

3.4

Hello.

I didn't see a reply to my email below. Please update me on progress.

Thanks & Regards,
Chris

[Copy of original email]

3.4

Dear Chris

Thank you for your mail.

I'm sorry to learn that you have received an email that contains no content. Unfortunately I am unaware as to why this may be. I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Kind regards

Rob
Orange Customer Services.

Oh thanks Rob! I waited 14 days and sent FOUR REMINDERS to receive this response from Rob, which is useless.

It's useless in a very interesting way, though. It responds not to the email I most recently sent, but to the blank email issue which I alluded to earlier in the dialogue.

This tells me that Rob has the entire dialogue available to him, and is CHOOSING not to address the main issue.

What a nice man Rob is.

What excellent standards of personal and professional integrity Orange cultivate.

Perhaps the future is bright and orange afterall.

5.4

Are we having fun yet?

I have sent you SIX emails on this topic, starting 18th March, to get an answer to two simple questions. Those questions are these:

1. Please tell me what the GPRS connection overhead is, and confirm that it is fixed for each connection. Specifically, tell me how many bites are transferred and what the consequential cost to me is.

2. Please tell me where Orange documents this charge. For example, the URL of the webpage, or a page number and document title.

Please reply, being sure to completely address both of these issues so that we don't have to discuss it again.

Now I have a third issue I would like resolving:

3. Please tell me why you have done such an appalling job of fielding this support request. Specifically, why did you point blank ignore 4 emails, and why did you side-step the main issue in your last two responses?

So - please ensure that your single response includes answers to all three of these issues.

Thanks,
Chris

8.4

Dear Mr Wesley

Thank you for your mail.

Please accept my apologies that you feel the experience you have had with Customer Services recently has not been to the standard which you have come to expect from Orange.

The GPRS bundles which are available to our customers are set to cover the majority, if not all the data transfer needed to perform relevant tasks which require the GPRS network.

With regards to the breakdown of the charges incurred when using GPRS, we cannot confirm exactly how many bytes are transferred at any one time. This is due to a number of factors:

1. The amount of bytes needed to transfer the data across the network. For example, when sending an email.

2. The size of the data (E.g email) which is being requested.

I regret to inform you that there is no literature available detailing the breakdown of GPRS charges, however it is through feedback such as yours that we are able to assess the effectiveness of our service.

I understand this has caused you great inconvenience and apologise for this. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to write to us and inform you that all points raised by your email have been noted.

I trust this is of assistance.

Kind regards

Nathalie
Orange Customer Services

8.4

Nathalie,

I am very frustrated to see that - yet again - you have not answered my questions.

Please therefore escalate this to your customer services manager, and tell me who that is, and how I may contact them.

I know full well that the charges are based on the amount of data transferred. Of course. That's obvious.
But your own support people have told me that the data transferred is made up of two components:

1. The amount of user data transferred
2. The GPRS connection overhead

I have asked you - several times - to tell me what size (and what cost) number 2 is. The GPRS connection overhead.
This will be clearly and completely understood by one of your technical experts. This information IS available and I want It, please.
You are obliged to tell your customers how much you charge them, and yet you seem to be deliberately concealing one component of your charges from me and all your customers.

I'm not going to go away no matter how long you stonewall, and you can be sure that I will be publishing the appalling level of service you have provided so far,
along with the final answer when I get it from you.

So please tell me what that is now. And please remember also to escalate this to your customer services manager, and to tell me who that is, and how I can contact them.

Thank you.

IMPORTANT:
My disclaimer trumps yours. I will do whatever I want with this dialogue including posting it on the web as an example of what a great job Orange does for its customers.

12.4

Dear Mr Wesley

Thank you for your mail.

I can confirm that the charges for the transfer of data over the GPRS network are set as £3 per Mb for pay monthly customers and £4 per Mb for pay as you go customers. There is no additional charge applied other than for the amount of data transferred.

There are also bundles available which, depending on your usage, can significantly reduce the cost of data transfer. Please find below details of GPRS charges.

Pay as you use data charges are:

for the first 3 Mb - £3 per Mb,
3-15 Mb - £2 per Mb
15+ Mb - £1 per Mb.

Available bundles

Orange World Access 1 - 1MB for £2
Orange World Access 4 - 4MB for £4
Orange World Access 10 - 10MB for £8
Orange World Access 25 - 25MB for £16
Orange World Access 80 - 80MB for £41.13
Orange World Access 400 - 400 MB for £52.88
Mobile Office Max 05 Fair use (1000MB) for £52.88

If you are a Pay as you go customer GPRS data is charged at £4 per Mb. There is also a 'Browse all day for £1' option available on the Orange World homepage.

I hope this information has clarified the situation.

If you wish to speak to a Supervisor regarding this matter, please could you call our Wirefree Data Services Department on 156 direct from your Orange phone (07973 100156 from any other phone) if you are a pay monthly customer or 450 (07973 100450) if you are a pay as you go customer, where a representative will be pleased to assist you in this matter. Your call can then be escalatedthrough the propper channels.

Kind regards

David
Orange Customer Services

12.4

David,

For maybe the 4th or 5th time you (Orange) have ignored my question.
I can only assume you are doing so deliberately.

Please therefore escalate this to your customer services manager and have them contact me.

Thanks

14.4

Dear Mr Wesley

Thank you for your mail.

I can confirm that the GPRS charges incurred when connecting to your email server include charges for all data transferred.

This includes the data transferred for the verification process which confirms that you have access to the requested mail box. The charge is also dependent on the format of the text downloaded. A complex text format will contain more data than others, therefore data transfer increases. Bad "packets" of data transferred via the GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) network would mean that they will need to be downloaded again for you to receive all of the information requested.

I hope this information has clarified the situation further.

Kind regards

David
Orange Customer Services

This does not resolve the problem.
Because you have not done a thorough job, you force me to waste even further time on this. I believe this will be the 6th or 7th turn of the handle on what ought to be a very simple query.

Please refer back to my original enquiry.

I downloaded the headers on some emails and counted the characters which were downloaded. They accounted for about half of the cost - based on credit calls before and after I downloaded them.

You people said that the extra cost was down to "GPRS connection overhead".
I doubted that - and asked for a clear statement of the volume (# bytes) & cost (pence) of this overhead.

Finally, you are addressing this - but you say that - effectively - there is NO GPRS connection overhead. If you is correct, then your colleague is wrong, and we are still missing 50% of the cost. If you are wrong, which seems far more likely, then this is HUGELY depressing.

I also note that you have ignored my request to have your customer services manager call me. Unless you are the customer services manager - which - frankly - might explain why the service is so incredibly poor.

So, for the Nth time - please sort this out and please ask your customer services manager to contact me.

Thank you.

PS: As usual, my disclaimer trumps yours. I'll do whatever I like with this dialogue.

19.4

Dear Mr Wesley

Thank you for your mail.

After reading through the previous emails, I find that this is a query concerning GPRS charging.

Therefore, as I am unable to involve any access to your account, this matter must be addressed to our Customer Services on 450 for payg Customers.

The customer is billed per event, i.e every time you access a new WAP or internet page you are billed for the volume of data that is downloaded on to your handset/Laptop/PDA device.

PAYG GPRS is charged at £4 per megabyte

1 Megabyte = 1024kilobytes = £4

1 Kilobyte = 1024 bytes = 0.39p

1 Byte = 8 bits
The following information gives an approximate example of costs to provide to the customer:
1 Page word document = 20-30 kb's = 7.8p - 11.7p

1 WAP Page = 600-900 bytes = 0.23p -0.34p

1 average website homepage = 34kb = 13.26p

I trust this information clarifies the situation for you.

Kind regards

Su
Orange Customer Services

Isn't this astonishing?! Isn't it unbelievably stupidly, inanely dreadfully bad?????

Who is the Orange customer services manager? How much does that person earn? How much does that person know about providing good customer service? Who are they sleeping with to hold down their job, given performance of this dismal quality? Who in Orange - ANYWHERE - is monitoring service quality?

I can say very dlearly indeed as an ex-manager of service organisations, that this person needs to be fired, because they have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they are a cretin. And - judging by the front-line people I've spoken to at Orange, most fo them should go as well - they appear not to be remotely interested in helping customers with their Orange-induced problems, and many can't apparently read.

Anyway, just before this email arrived, I was phoned up by Orange technical expert, Chris Harrison. He confirmed that the actual cost of transferring data via Orange's GPRS mobile network is about twice the rate they advertise. The cost to you is not the £4 per megabyte they advertise - it's nearer to £8, because of losses and overheads in the network we Orange customers are charged for - but secretly.

So, I looked Orange up at Companies House, and found that Orange is registered in Bristol. So I sent the email below to Bristol Trading Standards.

19.4

Hello,

I have conducted a lengthy and painful dialogue with Orange - the mobile phone people - during which they tried to avoid talking to me on a touchy subject.

They advertise data costs for pay as you go customers as £4 per megabyte.
But in fact, empirical evidence shows that the real cost is about twice that price.

After being indecently insistent, I finally spoke to their technical expert, Chris Harrison, who confirms that this is the case because, in addition to the customer's data transfer, the following additional (and un-advertised) factors are also paid for by the customer:

1. Negotiation with intermediate servers on the internet
2. GPRS connection overhead
3. Recovery of data lost in the Orange network
4. Protocol overhead associated with managing transmission power

I feel that Orange should not be charging their customers for these internal factors,
and I most certainly feel that Orange should not be allowed to advertise their data charges at about half or what they really are as they currently do.

Orange are registered in Bristol, so I am sending this to you folks, in the hope that you can help me to right this wrong.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks & Best Wishes,
Chris Wesley